From FBN: Homeowner Foreclosures Rising (TX is #1)
Follow this growing problem as Texas is listed as the highest state with actual numbers of foreclosure filings. Click the title link above or comment below in this blog.
Get on the petition drive to stop HOA foreclosures in your state. Go to: http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?homeback
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Stay informed and keep in touch!
Labels: CAI, developers, Foreclosures, HOA, Homeowner Rights, Lawyers, Special Interest, TCREA, ULI
posted by responsible_dvlpmnt at Thursday, February 08, 2007
44 Comments:
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Comments from FBN:
1 Cindy S - Feb 3, 12:48 pm
I’m the secretary for a consumer org that deals in builder complaints. Increasingly, complaints contain elements of predatory lending, too. With the number of new homes that are poorly built and now may be financed by risky loans, it’s my opinion that this country is going to experience a national epidemic in housing that was entirely preventable by ethical business standards. It’s a darn shame that our government has agencies purportedly to protect consumers and looks the other way for the benefit of various industries.
2 Chris Calvin, Ph.D. - Feb 3, 12:50 pm
Jordan,
Too many are involved with the protection of this industry. Developers, builders, TRCC, the local courts, etc. You are facing an industry that, as they say, “eats its own”. The consumer is the mark and we only get further entangled when we litigate in unfriendly consumer courts. Texas Judicial Watch rated Texas courts as some of the most consumer offensive in the country.
Additionally, many of these homes are being built in communities that are set-up with similar contract traps (by those elites in this industry).
For instance, we moved into one that has the same non-suit clauses as you mention above. Of course no one brings the issue up (not even your own attorneys) until you are $60,000+ into your counter-suit, as was our case in the recent SLAPP-back case we were involved with.
My best advice came to me prior to our litigation, just after we were targeted. An attorney/friend, who had defended in many of these cases, said give them whatever they want and just get out of it. She also said to move as quickly as you can out of these communities with the hidden contract traps and the accompanying CCRs set-up by the developers/builders when they build these communities.
Thinking the middle class can afford to defend themselves against giant corporations feeding on their consumer base (and their home equity) is a no win scenario and a waste of time and money. Some states provide a modicum of protection (see Anti-SLAPP statutes in 24 states), but you have to be extremely wealthy to defend in these strike cases (many judges recognize these cases, but allow them to continue until the target has depleted all funds and must settle or file bankruptcy to protect themselves).
Just don’t do it unless you are committed to years and years of litigation as we now are being forced into at extreme cost by our developer. We recently found links between some of the law firms our developer has under contract and a judge involved in our case (apparently there is nothing we can do about it, we’ll see). The deck is stacked and you will need to learn to fly the corporate flag and sing the company song until legislatures, councils, commissioners (and some judges) stop taking campaign funding from these large interests.
My opinion, of course, based on my experience and research into this type of litigation being used across our country (and here locally) to silence consumers/voters/taxpayers in droves. For more see these consumer friendly links on this industry and the contract traps involved with their homes/HOAs/lawyer lobby/politicians/etc…
http://www.hobb.org/
http://www.hadd.com
http://www.ahrc.com
http://www.texaswatch.org/tw/
http://stoptexashoaforeclosures.com/
http://www.texashoareform.org/Links.html
And for a listing of the lawyers who file foreclosures for HOAs see:
http://pages.prodigy.net/hoadata/
(Cross check this list with your county records and see if some of them are operating here in FB county. We’ve found many)
Take back local control through local elections one seat at a time. Check the politicians list of givers first and then vote for real reform.
Check the sites above for more information from fellow consumers across party lines and good luck to you!
3 shane - Feb 3, 02:27 pm
I remember how poorly attended ethics classes were in college. Everyone just wants to get ahead at any cost these days.
“The Attorney General has over 12,000+ complaints and has not investigated one. The FBI is the only one that notices something is amiss and has set up a mortgage fraud task force in Houston.
The Better Business Bureau threw out a couple of builders, so the rest threatened to boycott theBBB. So the BBB backed off. Where does the consumer go for help?”
4 Susan - Feb 3, 04:44 pm
“Where does the consumer go for help?”
Apparently there is not much help available. This story dealing with a Dallas area couple who bought a Perry home shows the magnitude of the problem and political ramifications:
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/012107dntswperryhomes2.3c4f952.html
Dallas Morning News, Sunday, January 21, 2007
5 hot - Feb 3, 07:55 pm
Thanks for the article Susan. This quote says it all about corporations and the war on the middle class:
“What is shocking is that the judges who took all this money have agreed to hear Perry’s appeal of a lemon-home case – one that he already lost in front of an arbitrator and two Texas courts,” he said. “It’s three strikes and you’re out in the Texas justice system – unless you own the league.” Dallas Morning News
more:
6 cc - Feb 4, 07:07 am
Until it happens to you, one does not really understand the horrors and magnitude of these issues. Prepare your children for this if things do not change. My “new “ home is a shamble. Not only does the builder not take repsonsibility they indeed start blaming the homeowner for all the defects with ludicrous excuses. My experience w/the BBB, well I have no words to express myself properly. Almost 2 weeks ago consumers from all over the state stood on the steps of the Capitol with all the consumer groups who look out for the interest of public citizen. Why do you think I was not surprised when some of these people pulled out huge binders with documentation about issues with their builder as well as their debacles with the BBB. These complaints were closed out so the builder still looks good.
I would urge people reading these comments to go to the websites Chris mentioned and navigate through them.
It will be an eye opener.
People used to say work hard and achieve the American Dream. If you are not careful your American Dream may become your worst nightmare.
7 carl - Feb 4, 07:24 am
Its not just texas defective houses are being put together nation wide!
http://www.badstucco.com/Leaks101_files/frame.htm
http://www.badstucco.com/phpbb/
8 hot - Feb 4, 07:49 am
Playing the blame game with consumers, voters, taxpayers seems to be the standard tactic by those protecting the industry, but I think the sheer numbers are making it too hard to keep a secret or to continue to use the “marginalize game” that has become standard fare. Even the 156,000+ foreclosures in the original article and the fact that Texas leads the count in the U.S. says this is no small isolated individual consumer problem (I think they often us the term “deadbeats” when pointing the finger. These networks must continue to be exposed along with their protectors.
“Not only does the builder not take repsonsibility they indeed start blaming the homeowner for all the defects with ludicrous excuses.”
9 John Cobarruvias - Feb 4, 12:32 pm
“Until it happens to you, one does not really understand the horrors and magnitude of these issues. “
So well put. Unfortunately when it does happen to you, or your family, it is way too late to do anything about it.
You can thank one of the many consumer groups for fighting to make sure you never have to go through what Jordan Fogel has gone through. Too bad they are losing on this battle ground.
I’ve been at this for 10 years and it just gets worse. www.hadd.com
10 cc - Feb 4, 03:28 pm
“I am sitting here on top of one of the biggest industries in the area, looking at all the problems we are having with them, and a year from today, we could have a ban on builders at this BBB. I don’t know, but its coming,” Parsons said.
This from an article done 11/2005. Why the change of mind?
In this article it stated :“we want to promote good business.”
Is bulding defective homes “good business”?
Labeling homeowner’s as difficult and unreasonable allows the justification of closing out complaints?
Homeowner’s paid for a product and it should be done correctly. I get more protection buying a $10 toaster at Wal-Mart.
Doesn’t matter about what happens to good people who do nothing more then make the biggest purchase of their life and get screwed.
What is this about, again go to the above websites and you will see.
11 hot - Feb 4, 03:34 pm
Here is an all to familiar story John. Check this link out on this wide-spread problem in this industry:
http://www.lakesidepress.com/dreams/section3.html
more:
12 Jordan Fogal - Feb 5, 10:46 pm
We have been in Washington Monthly, People magazine, a 7 page expose in Mother Jones, the local papers, TV, the Bev Smith show out of NY … and it is not going to get better until our government changes it’s policy toward the protection of the homebuilders,
If arbitration is so wonderful, why is it mandatory? Are we citizens or subjects?
Are you sure your new home is protected? Are you sure your family, will not join the growing ranks of the homeless? Are you sure you understand arbitration and tort reform? Are you sure that the American Arbitration Association, hasn’t stealthily already entered every phase of your life? Do you think you still have the right to a trial by a jury? Do you still think you can sue anyone who wrongs you? Do you still think frivolous lawsuits are those that happen to other people? Do you tire hearing any more about big business flagrantly squashing your rights? Do your eyes glaze over and your mind shut down when you hear all these things? Are you bored by this rhetoric? Is it all just to complicated for you to understand? I understand. But, please read on. Because you have been majority deluded, confused and overwhelmed … just so these things will slip right by unnoticed.
If you have a new home, new car, a car lease, a Visa, Master Card, American Express, Discover card, bank account, a cell phone, a storage room, electricity or even an exterminator. YOU have given up your seventh Amendment rights. You have given up your seventh amendment rights, you cannot sue any of these people. Sounds crazy doesn’t it? Well, call any of them and ask if you have an arbitration clause in your contract with them … because you do.
We are bombard daily, with harassing telemarketers, a mailbox full of trash offers and clutter … our bills are stuffed with slick adds and offers. We don’t have time to read all this junk….. And there in lies the problem. Big Business knows you don’t. We are the new hurried, fast food, drive by cleaners generation, the multi taskers. ... with more on our plates than we can handle. So big business has used your over burdened life style to their distinct advantage. You are screwed. Those little offers or things you think are privacy propaganda, in your bills, they aren’t, they say “if you continue to use our services and do not pay off your account immediately you are now accepted the following terms…..You have now accepted arbitration … and you didn’t even read it.
Not one person in this country, is not bound by an arbitration clause and the shocking part of it … most don’t even know it. But you will, when you become one of the enlightened and destroyed. And believe me you do not want to be.
Ignorance is bliss … and you can remain blissfully unaware of the dangers lurking, that threaten you, your family, your home and your livelihood. But when it hits you, it will be, a rude awakening … like a two by four right between the eyes. AM I am trying to scare you? You bet I am. Because many of us do not have the time to watch fear factor, we live it daily. And, you may have just signed on for a guest appearance.
Take your home for instance. You made your down payment. You make your payments on time, you paid your property tax, you have homeowners insurance. Your investment is safe. You are living the American dream. Not so Kimosabie. You have rolled the dice with your future, put all your money on the pass line, and you weren’t even aware you were gambling.
Example: You have a lovely new home, all decorated, a manicured lawn, a place for your stuff, and somewhere to come home to. But what happens if you start having problems with that new house? You just call your builder for repairs right? What if he doesn’t answer your phone calls, faxes, or emails. What if the problem continues to worsen … as you try to get him to live up to his moral, and ethical responsibilities. You say well I have a contract. And you do.
Now….. you will take the time to read, all that raft of papers that were shoved at you at closing. Uh oh…earnest money contract, arbitration clause. Closing papers arbitration clause…warranty papers arbitration clause. Your foundation is cracking, your walls have lines that weren’t there before, the carpet is damp and your house is taking on a musty smell. Your children begin to be ill and Fido’s’ hair falls out. What are you going to do? Your wife is frantic. She is calling neighbors, many experiencing the same sort of problems. Many do not want to admit it and “patch up and dump.” Some will get by with it, until the new owner sues them. Yes, the new owner can sue you, just can’t sue your big builder. Big business, little business that is how tort reform works. And yes, you all paid to have your house inspected and had a relator and you called them all. You can start at the governor’s office and they will refer you into a vortex of time-consuming, catch 22’s that will make you crazy. You will end up lastly at the Heath department. They can try to help you find temporary housing … soon, or maybe later….if you qualify and of course fill out the paper work. You have now filled out paper work for every agency in the state. You stay up all night filling out this waste of time. Then bleary eyed drag yourself to your day job. No one understands. They think you are a real putz and offer you their lawyer’s phone number…thinking you just are not smart enough to handle your own affairs. Little do they know…yet.
They think they are not in any danger…and that you just do not understand how to hand these things.
You call you insurance company…you know that agency that has you safe in their out stretched hands. That agency you pay those hefty premiums to each month. Guess what, substandard construction and builder defects are not covered items.
You are on the phone with your lawyer, he has looked over your papers, and informs you, YOU cannot sue your builder, you have signed an arbitration clause. You say, well lets arbitrate … it is faster and cheaper and my house is deteriorating as we speak, my investment is being destroyed. He really doesn’t want the case, but will take it for a substantial upfront fee. He knows neither of you are going to be happy with the outcome, so he gets his upfront. Many of these legal eagles also have arbitration clauses in their own contracts. The contract you must sign to have legal representation. And you have to have a lawyer no matter what AAA arbitration tells you. Your shower falls out. Black puffy balls are growing out of your carpet. Your windows are leaking, your hardwoods have begun to buckle, the children are sick, their eyes are all red, they have constant sore throats, you are having migraines you think from all the stress, your wife is crying, and her nose is bleeding …and your cat just died. ( Am I Exaggerating … No unfortunately, I am not.) I am just reliving part of what happened in our neighborhood, compliments of our greedy, unethical, unscrupulous builder. He sold us our homes after filing a lawsuit against the roofer and subcontractors with no disclosure. Yes, I said, he sued … the big boys still have the right to sue, this only applies to you and me, the little guys. Arbitration is great protection for the mass builder. First, most of you can’t afford it and second if you can roll out 30 to 100,000 dollars it is still an unfair playing field. The builders team of high priced, sleazy prostitutes can make chopped liver of you in short order. They do this for a living. In our case, one of the builders’ law partners, was/is also a AAA arbitrator. You want him to rule on your case? Why didn’t you repair your own house?
First you didn’t think that was your responsibility, it was the builders. Second you had no idea the amount of damage and third, when you found out how many thousands of dollars it would cost … you couldn’t afford it.
You hadn’t planned on the down payment, the new drapes, the new lawn mower and then repairs? TO A BRAND NEW HOUSE! Did you figure an extra 20 to 150 thousand for that in your budget? Like us, you probably bought a new home so repairs would not be an issue. Well, guess what else you can’t afford? You can’t afford arbitration. Nobody tells you what it costs. The American Arbitration Association will not even give you a total cost, but if you can’t afford it … they will be more than happy to send you a form that authorizes them to just charge all their monstrous fees as they occur, on to your credit cards. How ever many it takes. Do I have you attention now? Do you think you have entered the twilight zone. Well, welcome to our world.
Homeless in Houston
Jordan Fogal Please google my name for more information or check out HADD.org or HOBB.org, tort deform
13 hot - Feb 6, 07:19 am
Jordan,
I think you make a great point. Additionally I don’t think the family in this story linked below would disagree. Apparently when the “king makers” decided the rules aren’t fair to them they change them through their vast resources and political networks. Hopefully the public is waking up and will take action through direct pressure on those in office dangling on the end of the strings.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/012107dntswperryhomes2.3c4f952.html
14 Flores - Feb 6, 11:18 am
My husband and I are just about to start getting our 1st new home and they will start building in about 3wks. After reading everyone’s horrible and sad stories, I’m scared to death on us getting a home now. Maybe we should just stop now and stay where we live now. Totally scared and confused, Flores
15 hot - Feb 6, 02:36 pm
Flores,
There are several good books on building you might want to do a search on Amazon or visit some of the consumer sites (mentioned above). Do some homework before you start and you should be fine. I would strongly suggest checking out who is managing the community you are moving into and get a independent building inspector to review the building process on your home. The buyer must beware in this market (especially in this state with the courts & legislature protecting the industry, not the consumers) and make sure you have a TRUSTED attorney review the contracts for you and advise you. There isn’t much they can do about them, but they can fore-warn ya.
16 Harvella Jones - Feb 7, 08:56 pm
Our legislators are well aware of the crisis and one for sure is part of the problem—Sen. John Carona—the author of many of our band-aid bills such as Texas Property Code 209 – the supposedly great redemption bill. There is so much fear in agencies that we as homeowners are supposed to be able to go to for help and so much greed and self-serving agendas from legislators who are supposed to be watching out for us instead of pounding the nail deeper into the coffin. We have one legislator so far, Rep. Harold Dutton that has written a bill HB749 that deals with foreclosures and is tying it to our homestead. Please listen and support this bill. Thank you so much.
Harvella Jones
17 rcocheu - Feb 8, 05:51 am
HB 749 is a death bill for Homeowners Associations (HOA). Please read the text of the bill. It wouild prevent an HOA from foreclosing for non-payment of dues. In unincorporated areas the HOA pays for street lights, landscaping, pools and other amnenities. Without the threat of foreclosure, no one would pay their annual HOA assessment. Current law provides for multiple protections against HOA non-payments (right of redemption being only one example). As my parents taught me nothing is free in life. We all like to live in the nice neighborhood with the landscaping, street lights, pool, clubhouse, etc. Just no one wants to pay for them.
18 Chris Calvin, Ph.D. - Feb 8, 07:40 am
Rcocheu,
You need to look at the thousands of cases of ridiculous foreclosure filings (at http://pages.prodigy.net/hoadata/), many for fairly small covenant violations. HOA’s are currently subject to corporate/contract law thus not the checks and balances of rules governing public entities. Property code 290 further violates the TX constitution. Solving a problem with a hammer and an often misused hammer isn’t needed. The AARP has recently come out against this abusive power often used against retirees and others on fixed incomes (with a homeowners bill of rights). Many other tools exist to collect debt other than taking families homes and memories from them and Texas, as this article states, already leads the nation in all foreclosures. No need to keep that title.
As for the “right of redemption”, that is neither a fair or inexpensive solution to the original homeowner or the purchaser of said property if the original owner decides to change their mind. Our dentist, and other service professional do not have the right to foreclose (they go to claims court) why should an HOA (especially a developer run HOA which controls the board). Additionally until the same rules govern HOAs as local governments I can see no reason to turn this power over to lobby groups like the CAI or TCREA that attempts to push through bills like TUPCA. Two legislative committees have rules unfavorably on this bill that would further strip homeowners of their property rights in a nation that is supposed to protect them. The pools will stay open and the grass will still get cut!
“Without the threat of foreclosure, no one would pay their annual HOA assessment.” — This is perhaps the biggest misnomer I’ve seen by this industry. No one believes it. Associations existed before 1987 when the TX Sup. Ct. took this protection from property owners in violation of the const.
19 anon - Feb 8, 10:01 am
The foreclosure business has been a big money-making boom for several attorneys in the last few years—look at hoadata.org. Go to the elections office in FBC and look at who donates to campaigns (if you can decipher thru the acronyms and bs)—there are some foreclosure and school district attorneys who give quite a bit—do you see a problem here—if you do some research, you’ll find some nepotism and favoritism going on as well?—you pay your taxes or dues and they use them against you to foreclose over minial little things such as dead grass or a flag in your front yard—-not always over not paying your dues. Attorney’s fees are attorney’s fees—-that’s what they foreclose over—are the fees you haven’t paid the boards’ attorneys, not your dues or violation in the first place. And don’t forget, they gotta cover those three attorneys that the management company has on retainer with your monies as well. So when it gets down to it, you’ve got about five attorneys against you (with your dues you’ve paid) while you can barely afford one for yourself, and yours isn’t gonna win anyway because he’s not in the “in-crowd”. And a lot of the time, it’s a simple matter that could be remedied by “just the grass growing back”. And I ask you rcocheu, do you know of any HOA who allows outsiders to use their facilities without paying for it? If you do, then explain to me how you think a homeowner in an assn. would want to work hard to come up with the money to pay their own dues and may actually barely be making ends meet, with the threat of foreclosure if he doesn’t pay, while friends of friends take over the common areas-parks, pools and tennis courts. Not trying to sound selfish here but it doesn’t make sense to take someone’s home (for any reason) if they are on hard times while you cater to non-paying outsiders. And then the victims keep on paying in ridiculous fees. Until I started sending my HOA dues check via certified mail and got a signature and date it was received—my check was held onto for past the time of the annual meeting and election—I still cannot find out if my votes have counted. Does this sound fair to anyone? Does this sound like a democracy? If someone can control receiving your HOA dues, they can control any other matter they wish. I think it’s time that mandatory HOAs are done away with. The only ones who will complain about that are foreclosure lawyers and the judges they contribute to. And, have I mentioned that these attorneys are the meanest, most terroristic people you’ll ever be around—-why do they have to be that way? I couldn’t sleep at night if I was in that business to take people’s homes from them. I could tell you some horror stories of what I’ve seen happen to other people that have been done by these money-hungry monsters. Access hoatalk.com and see for yourself that all over this country, people are being abused by HOAs and their attorneys. Even if a thread starts out with the poster sounding hopeful, once they get involved, even as a board member, they end up in another true horror story. There should be no foreclosures. If you have no say about the amenities, then you shouldn’t have to pay for them. I’ve seen voluntary HOAs that looked a lot better and were kept up much better than the ones that charge dues and the dues keep increasing so that the boards can give it away or pay for insurance to pay for unscrupulous lawyers.
What I’d really like to see is an all out investigation of these matters and for some one to get to the bottom of the corruption that’s going on. Our society has gone to the dogs—no one tells the truth or respects one another or their property anymore!
PA
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
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20 John Cobarruvias - Feb 8, 11:33 am
“My husband and I are just about to start getting our 1st new home and they will start building in about 3wks. After reading everyone’s horrible and sad stories, I’m scared to death on us getting a home now. Maybe we should just stop now and stay where we live now. Totally scared and confused, Flores”
Well, all I can say is to protect yourself up front. Do your homework. Research the builder. Most probably you will be just fine!
But….if you have a bad defect, don’t expect much help in this state. That is the plain truth.
Ask Jordan.
21 Chris Calvin, Ph.D. - Feb 8, 11:34 am
Hi anon,
You may want to listen to this web-cast of HOA foreclosure and fraud reform going on in Florida at http://www.onthecommons.com/Track02.MP3 . Sounds like something desperately needed here in Fort Bend County with 41 master-planned communities and growing along with many, many foreclosure (HOA & other) attorneys contracted as vendors and contributing to some of our local & regional politicians (some hiring family members of judges too).
I agree much needs to be investigated as this industry grows. I would refer you to a national website with many thousands of these cases, but it was hacked recently and brought down. I know this because I spent some time discussing this with the national coordinator for the American Homeowners Resource Center.
Hopefully they and their 12,000+ member organization having reps in every state in the U.S. will be back and working on issues like this! BTW the address is http://www.ahrc.com.
Interesting data/photo from another site:
http://bayareahouston.blogspot.com/2007/02/its-official-texas-worst-place-to-live.html
more:
22 Harvella Jones - Feb 8, 08:48 pm
To: Rcocheu
HB749 will correct the wrong against our Texas
Constitution. To make such a statement that HB749 is a death bill for Homeowner Associations tells everyone that you are not familiar with the Texas Constitution. ALL HOA foreclosures are unConstitutional. These are debts and must be treated as such. No entity such as your neighborhood association, ran by your neighbors who are volunteers should have that much power over whether you stay in your homestead or not. Unfortunately people are sometimes misled to believe that having the power to foreclose is a good thing for the community when in fact it works just the opposite. The foreclosure hammer is a negative effect that benefits no one but management companies, Community Association Institute attorneys and a few homeowner associations. Foreclosures give homeowner associations a one-sided advantage over homeowners that has created renegade boards, manipulative lawfirms and homeowner associations that act as master-slave communities instead of the master-planned communities they advertise. The assumption that homeowners will not pay their maintenance fees is pure propaganda manufactured to manipulate legislators to reject prohomeowner bills and to give homeowners the false sense of neighborhood protection against purple houses, raised cars on blocks, barking dogs, loud music and untidy lawns. Homeowners have been so brainwashed about living a perfect life in a homeowner association community that they have been blind sighted about the real deal—the same foreclosure your neighbor receive is the same one that can happen to you if you get sick, if you lose your job, if you have a dispute with your homeowner association. The protection of HOAs by the opponents of such bills as Rep. Harold Dutton’s HB749 is not because of love for the community but love of power, money and self. To promulgate throughout the state the fairy tale that homeowners would willingly not pay on a large mass scale while obviously wanting to be in a nice neighborhood is borne of fear of releasing the debtor to be free to enjoy the home they purchased. Since the Constitution was created to protect our rights, then it should be protected and obeyed and no one has the authority outside of the law to alter it any fashion. It is always appalling to hear statements such as yours that think compromising the Constitution is better than removing an unearned glitch in the law from the real abusers who foreclose on our homesteads. Yes, I will repeat—please support Rep. Harold Dutton’s HB 749 and stop this madness!
23 jamie - Feb 8, 11:12 pm
rcocheu is right on the money. HOAs must have the ability to foreclose for nonpayment of assessments if they are to be able to meet their obligations to maintain common areas. I believe that Ms. Jones and the producers of the ahrc website are very well aware of this fact. They had a bad experience with their HOAs and they now want to deprive all of us of being able to live in functional HOAs. In her last post Ms. Jones appears to be trying to convince us that we should be allowed to keep all of our rights even at the expense of the common good. This kind of quaint sentimentality leads to very bad laws. If Ms. Jones and others do not want to live in HOAs then they have the right to move somewhere else.
Dr. Calvin,
Texas law only allows an HOA to foreclose for unpaid assessments. The “ridiculous foreclosure filings” on the website you mention are only filings. They do not represent actual foreclosures. Unfortunately in some cases threatening foreclosure is the only way someone can be convinced to pay their obligation to their HOA. Hammers have been misused, but most of us recognize that they are useful.
You write that “many other tools exist to collect debt other than taking families homes and memories”. What other cost effective tools does an HOA have to collect this obligation from a delinquent homeowner? Do you think that it would be fair for the HOA to pass along the cost of non-paying owners to paying owners?
No one said the “right of redemption” was an inexpensive solution to the serious problem of a homeowner who can’t or won’t pay his obligation. Do you have a solution that is less expensive and fair to paying members of the HOA?
You write that your dentist does not have the right to foreclose for nonpayment of fees and wonder why should an HOA . The HOA must continue to pay for the maintenance of the common area while it is trying to collect assessments from delinquent owners. Doesn’t your dentist have the right to refuse to continue treating you (emergencies aside) if you fail to pay OR does he have to continue treating you while charging his other customers higher fees to cover your treatment?
If the legislature makes it impossible for HOAs to collect delinquent assessments then paying owners will have to pay more and eventually the pools will close and the grass will be overgrown for lack of maintenance due to lack of funds.
It is 2007, not pre-1987. Without the threat of foreclosure people will have no disincentive to be delinquent in their assessments. This will increase costs for those homeowners who pay their obligation. Eventually, these folks will get tired and few will pay their assessments. You can say that you do not believe that this scenario could happen, but that does not mean it won’t.
If we allow the legislature to make laws that make it impossible for HOAs to be effective, then we will all need to get used to neighbors who do not cut their grass and who park their truck in their yard. Call your legislator to oppose HB749 and other bills that would hurt the HOAs ability to do their important work.
24 Chris D. Calvin, Ph.D. - Feb 9, 09:47 am
Jaime V?
I will address your points below individually. Many of the posters here and on other consumer friendly sites have served on HOA boards and upper level committees. This is how we know the abuse goes on and better understand the structure of how this private corporate monopoly has evolved in Texas since 1987. I would also have to agree with the anon poster above about the networks that have evolved to support this relatively new industry that many Americans unknowingly sign into when they purchase their homes. I for one have never been late or assessed, but have seen selective code enforcement used wide-spread to silence and control my friends and neighbors. I support having HOAs, but not to give them governmental power over property owners through private contracts that strip them of any realistic recourse like prop. 209 does (passes the cost of litigation to the homeowner when an HOA forecloses and sues). As for the rest of your industry rhetoric please see the responses below. Most of your canned diatribe has been repeatedly used by the CAI/ULI/TCREA lobby pushing anti-homeowner bills (like TUPCA). Also above I believe is a link to an effort in Fla. by legislatures there that will allow criminal investigatons to be conducted into these associations, rather than the failed current model which has rarely produced any results given the unequal playing field.
Read on JV:
“Texas law only allows an HOA to foreclose for unpaid assessments. The “ridiculous foreclosure filings” on the website you mention are only filings. They do not represent actual foreclosures.”
This is false and inaccurate information and there is nothing “ridiculous” about taking someones biggest investment. Many of those filings actually did go through, but saying they are “just filings” only attempts to minimize the harm this does to the 10,000 to 15,000 that were targeted in these private corporate filings/cases against families (many elderly & retired). This is why AARP has gotten involved too.
“Unfortunately in some cases threatening foreclosure is the only way someone can be convinced to pay their obligation to their HOA.”
This rhetoric again assumes that most homeowners are not earnest tax paying, hard working Americans trying to afford and live the dream. It is also standard oration for the CAI/ULI/TCREA lobby that has worked so hard to convince the public that this is true and that’s why they are needed. The Harvard Univ. study at HOAdata.org produced significant counter evidence to support that aggressive acts like home seizure only hurt the property values in that community. Several legislative committees have recommended, after reviewing the industry bill TUPCA, that disclosure of these law-suits be made public to those purchasing in a community to further expose the under-belly of this hidden industry after the documentation of the many lives/families it has destroyed. I was contacted a few months back by another concerned homeowner in Philadelphia that thought a public health study should also be conducted relating to the stress factor and lives lost in this battle for property rights, foreclosure and our homes and families. I would agree such a study needs to be done extensively after the cases I have read and experienced first hand with this industry.
As I said before the grass will get cut and the pools will stay open without giving our homes/futures/investment away.
I might add that some of these law firms that conduct the foreclosure filings also have been known to bid on the properties after (see Meadowcreek example here in Mo-City for more and RICO filings in other states through any of the consumer related sites: http://home.att.net/~petitioners/index.htm) . This sort of practice is not only unethical it should be illegal and it provides an incentive for the industry to profit from home takeovers in these large master-planned communities. This incentive needs to be removed and exposed and documented where it has occurred. It also should be pointed out when conflicts involve this special interest lawyer group and any of the area judges too. This type of co-optation of the courts is unacceptable although it does go on.
“Hammers have been misused, but most of us recognize that they are useful.”
Only useful for those abusing the power in mass as has been documented in recent studies (the mgr. firms/lawyer enforcers).
“You write that “many other tools exist to collect debt other than taking families homes and memories”. What other cost effective tools does an HOA have to collect this obligation from a delinquent homeowner?”
HOAs/mgrs./lawyers would have the same tools they left their homeless victims with. Namely civil lawsuits to collect debt, claims courts, removal of club privileges, etc. The same measures they use now. Again most will and do pay their dues not even knowing they signed this power away when they purchased (because of the disclosure issues).
“Do you think that it would be fair for the HOA to pass along the cost of non-paying owners to paying owners?”
My HOA does this all the time and I’m sure many others do on mainteance and other areas of concern. I’ve even heard the HOA refer those seeking more amenites refer concerned residents to local MUD boards and even LIDs (they pass/share costs all the time Jaime as you well know).
“No one said the “right of redemption” was an inexpensive solution to the serious problem of a homeowner who can’t or won’t pay his obligation. Do you have a solution that is less expensive and fair to paying members of the HOA?”
Yes hire fewer managers and their flunkies, reduce the management budget and legal cost related to the industry and free up the millions of dollars being hoarded by this special interest and return these massive expenditures (that should be part of the HOA reserves) to the legitimate HOA board (you know elected boards, not the lawyers proxy boards that dominate some of these larger communities). Try it and see if it works. Shrink the growing bureaucracies and watch the reserves grow again that can be used for real emergencies in these neighborhoods (projected at over 90 billion dollars nation-wide). HOAs and volunteer civic associations and many other variants should be considered/allowed so that home-buyers have more selection and choice (rather than this one size fits all industry push lead by ULI/CAI/TCREA affiliates)
“You write that your dentist does not have the right to foreclose for nonpayment of fees and wonder why should an HOA . The HOA must continue to pay for the maintenance of the common area while it is trying to collect assessments from delinquent owners. Doesn’t your dentist have the right to refuse to continue treating you (emergencies aside) if you fail to pay OR does he have to continue treating you while charging his other customers higher fees to cover your treatment?”
Jaime this example is non sequitur as well as leading (double-bind stuff, you know). Most dentist have an oath to protect clients. They do not have a right to take your home if you fail to pay your bill (as is the case with most highly trained professionals. Which is not the case with untrained mgmt companies hired flunkies in HOAs).
“If the legislature makes it impossible for HOAs to collect delinquent assessments then paying owners will have to pay more and eventually the pools will close and the grass will be overgrown for lack of maintenance due to lack of funds.”
Again a often over-used rhetorical response by the industry insiders and it does not even begin to address the constitutional violation (16th Amendement to TX Const.) of the power to confiscate private property. I think we all have read the nightmare cases and they seem to be growing. We received threatening letters ourselves from an industry enforcer attorney, not for failure to pay or CCR violation, but because we nominated neighbors to a committee in our community (during these nominations mgmt filed CCR violation twice on one family in an attempt to intimidate them out of running on this committee that had already approved unanimously the selection. I believe this was done to control the HOA committees, as this is not an under-reported tactic.)
“It is 2007, not pre-1987. Without the threat of foreclosure people will have no disincentive to be delinquent in their assessments. This will increase costs for those homeowners who pay their obligation. Eventually, these folks will get tired and few will pay their assessments. You can say that you do not believe that this scenario could happen, but that does not mean it won’t.”
Very faulty somewhat repetitive logic here. You are making the assumption that this is the only tool that works, which couldn’t be further from the truth (see earlier examples). The reality is this tool destroys people’s lives, families, homes and is poorly regulated. No private corporation, which is what HOAs and their mgrs are, should be allowed this power. Too many other solutions exist and hopefully it is 2007 and we have evolved to a point where the lowest common denominator as the only solution we are looking at (see suggestions above) is no longer feasible. I like the Florida case posted earlier too. When local county and municipal governments can and do enforce criminal and civil statutes on HOA/developer fraud cases, then people can rest more easily in their homes, rather than the current system of distrust of thy neighbor (and keeping one eye open). You see I believe HOAs can work and perform their duties, but that doesn’t mean through exaggeration of their function, control or power relationships with their clients , these all create an in balance that is unsustainable. For example HOA elections should be monitored via the same election committees and officials that monitor local and county elections allowing for over-sight and a fairer process, more so than the current proxy system that is controlled by the industry lawyers and other insiders (see earlier case posting).
“If we allow the legislature to make laws that make it impossible for HOAs to be effective, then we will all need to get used to neighbors who do not cut their grass and who park their truck in their yard.”
Again just repeat ad infinitum of the previous diatribe. No response needed on this one (unless you want me to repeat too?).
“Call your legislator to oppose HB749 and other bills that would hurt the HOAs ability to do their important work.”
I agree do call your representatives, as I have done, and tell them to stop taking contributions from this lobby and support pro-homeowner legislation like HB749 and oppose industry lobbyist insider bills that further strip you and your neighbor of property rights like the recent TUPCA industry attempt (remember this is from other homeowners, not industry insiders).
For more on this tragedy see:
http://www.hobb.org/
http://www.hadd.com
http://www.ahrc.com
http://www.texaswatch.org/tw/
http://stoptexashoaforeclosures.com/
http://www.texashoareform.org/Links.html
And for a listing of the lawyers who file foreclosures for HOAs see:
http://pages.prodigy.net/hoadata/
*Final note: In a state where actual numbers of home foreclosures ranking number 1, do we really need to give this power to more industry lobbys in a system with no checks & balances (closed corporate system/ruled by hidden contracts)?
More:
25 Matthew Feinberg - Feb 9, 10:33 am
“The Attorney General has over 12,000+ complaints and has not investigated one. “
After Rita my brother-in-law had problem with his towed vehicle after it ran out of gas. He was taken advantage of by the towing company and when he tried to file a complaint with the Attorney Generals office they told him flat out.
“The Attorney General is not here to protect the public from business, the Attorney General is here to protect business and the government from the public.”
Thats the attitude in Texas. It is a very very sad state of affairs.
26 hapless - Feb 9, 10:39 am
You mean the people who run our HOA can actually take our house?
27 rippedoff - Feb 9, 11:20 am
“Well, all I can say is to protect yourself up front. Do your homework. Research the builder. Most probably you will be just fine!”
You of all people know “researching” you builder means nothing. Ask ME. I know first hand. I do not believe I could have done anything more to protect myself . I have to deal with the nightmare of my life. The BBB gives this builder glowing reports and closes out the bulk of complaints. HOW in the world does anyone “research” their builder? There are too many variables to even suggest that.
Take your chance and you may be lucky. I WAS NOT.
28 Amy McCorkle - Feb 9, 01:24 pm
It is apparent that jamie and rcocheu work for the HOA industry. They could care less of the toll it takes on the HOA victims, just as long as they get their money.
Our HOA takes in $70,500 (235 homes X $300 yr) and we have zero amenities. It doesn’t take 70k (or a rocket scientist) to care for the entrance (no gate, just a few scrawny flowers and a sign)- the bulk of the money goes to mgmt cos, landscape cos, attys and insurance. What an industry they have created for themselves. I should create my own industry – I could model it after HOA’s – call it the ‘pay me more money because I said so’ industry – pmmmbiss for short!
Homeowners neither want nor need HOA’s, we are perfectly capable of taking care of ourselves and our properties without being micro-managed.
The cities allow it because they can still collect the tax money that used to be used for taking care of the entrances or any other amenities that HOA’s other than ours provides and not have to take care of it anymore. Hey what’s not to love about this setup for the cities!
HOA’s are a failure. The only folks who benefit are in the HOA industry and the cities who no longer have to fulfill the responsibilities they are collecting tax money for. The homeowners lose.
The stress of living in a HOA is tremendous and horrendous. I wish it was as easy to get out as it was to get in. Anyone want to buy a house?
29 hot - Feb 9, 06:49 pm
“I could model it after HOA’s – call it the ‘pay me more money because I said so’ industry – pmmmbiss for short!”
I love it. I sure wish those living in these communities could really decide whether they want a civic association, HOA or nothing, rather than being limited to one and only choice that removes their property rights. I guess you have to be in the lobby to have real choices though!
30 jamie - Feb 9, 09:15 pm
Dr. Calvin,
I will address your points below individually.
I do not disagree that there is abuse by some HOA boards, some attorneys and some management companies; but the majority of people living in HOAs are satisfied or at least not dissatisfied. There is not as much abuse as the anti-HOA lobby would have us believe.
The ubiquitous anon poster is always telling us about the networks that have evolved to support the evil industry du jour as if this does not happen in every industry. We should concentrate on things that we can change rather than whining about how the porridge is made.
I am glad that you support having HOAs, but I do not see that you have really shown your support by the policies you support. You seem to think that paying owners should have to shoulder the burden of nonpaying owners and that is not fair. If a delinquent owner fails to pay his obligation despite appropriate attempts on the part of the HOA to get him to pay it, then why shouldn’t the delinquent owner be responsible for the legal fees that result? Do you expect the attorney to work for free? Do you expect the paying owners to shoulder the burden of these legal fees by facing increased assessments? Please give a practical solution that works for real people.
As for your crack that mine is a “canned diatribe” I could say the same about your comments that have been spouted by the anti-HOA lobby for years; but why don’t we just look at the issues rather than trading barbs of this sort?
Please go back and read your post. You are the one who used the phrase “ridiculous foreclosure filings”. Now you say that there is nothing “ridiculous” about taking someone’s biggest investment. Which is it? I actually agree with your second post. The matter is far from ridiculous. There is also nothing ridiculous about an HOA trying to collect assessments so that it can meet its obligations to the community.
My point stands that the HOA data website lists foreclosure filings, not actual foreclosures. It is false and inaccurate to try to scare the public with the number by stating it in a way that they could draw the incorrect conclusion that these were actual foreclosures. The overwhelming majority of the filings probably do not actually go through because people pay up when the realize that the matter is serious and not “ridiculous”.
I do not doubt that most homeowners are earnest tax paying, hard working Americans trying to afford and live the dream; but if they know that they can get by without paying HOA dues with little or no consequences; then HOAs and their members are going to be in trouble and the maintenance of common areas like pools and landscaping will have to stop. To deny with certainty that this would be the likely outcome is to deny human nature and basic economics.
You cite the Harvard Univ. study at HOAdata.org and say that it “produced significant counter evidence to support that aggressive acts like home seizure only hurt the property values in that community”. It did no such thing. Here is a key statement from that study in the author’s words, “it would be inappropriate to conclude on this evidence that HOAs or HOA foreclosures are actually bad for property values, since we do not know what would have happened to property values in HOA subdivisions had the HOA not been present.”
As for conducting a public health study relating to the stress factor and lives lost in this battle for property rights, foreclosure and our homes and families; I would caution that there are many confounding factors. People who reach the point of being foreclosed upon by their HOA usually (although not necessarily always) have many other problems.
I agree with you that it is wrong for law firms that conduct the foreclosure filing to bid on the properties when they are up for foreclosure. The appropriate response is to expose and prosecute in these cases, rather than passing bad laws that destroy HOAs.
You wrote that HOAs/mgrs./lawyers could collect monies owed by delinquent owners through civil lawsuits to collect debt, claims courts, removal of club privileges. How much money would this cost and how effective would it be? From what I have heard and read the methods you cite are not very effective in many cases and the paying homeowners usually get stuck with the bill.
You suggest that HOAs hire fewer managers, reduce the management budget and legal cost related to collecting assessments. Are you saying that we should go to all-volunteer community managers? Would you be okay with paying higher assessments when 20% of your neighbors do not pay their assessments because the HOA refuses to hire legal counsel to help with delinquent collections?
I asked, “Doesn’t your dentist have the right to refuse to continue treating you (emergencies aside) if you fail to pay OR does he have to continue treating you while charging his other customers higher fees to cover your treatment?”, but you did not answer my question.
Instead you said that this example was non sequitur as well as leading, but you are the one who brought it up. I merely took your analogy to its logical conclusion. A dentist does not have to continue treating you forever if you fail to pay his fee; but an HOA has an obligation to maintain the common areas whether you pay on time or not. Therefore, your analogy fails.
It is disingenuous to say that HOA foreclosure destroys people’s lives, families, and homes as if the HOA is responsible for an owner who can’t or won’t pay their assessment.
HOAs may be private corporations under the law, but they actually exist for the public good.
I am not arguing that other solutions should not be used and explored, but if you take away that foreclosure ability for HOAs then you are going to have problems. It must be available as a last resort. The real fact that some Boards, attorneys and management companies abuse it does not necessarily mean it should be abolished. I do not hear anyone calling for the abolishment of motor vehicles. Greater regulation might be appropriate, but we should all realize that it will increase costs for those that live in HOAs.
Like you, I believe HOAs can work and perform their duties, but they must have the appropriate authority to discharge their obligations.
As a homeowner (not an industry insider which I am not) I am urging all to call your legislator to oppose HB749 and other bills that would hurt the HOAs ability to do their important work. This legislation is more anti-HOA than it is “pro-homeowner” as it will harm many more homeowners living in HOAs than it helps.
31 jamie - Feb 9, 10:48 pm
I do not work for the HOA industry. I am homeowner who is very happy with my HOA and I am not interested in having to pay higher assessments because the anti-HOA lobby is so intent on denying HOAs the ability to foreclose on delinquent owners. The anti-HOA lobby is guilty of demagoguery because it is preying on the emotions of people who will feel guilty about the “victims” of these foreclosures. Why should I be forced to pay for this? I already pay enough taxes. Is it my fault that people get in over their head and then cannot pay their obligations? Is it my fault that some people are stubborn and want to hold their assessment obligation hostage because they are disgruntled homeowners? Why should I have to support this behavior by paying higher assessments?
I think a rocket scientist would have a difficult time figuring out whether your HOA is spending funds appropriately given the sketchy details that you provide.
You say that homeowners neither want nor need HOA’s, but you are wrong. HOAs serve an important and useful function for their members as rcocheu has pointed out in an earlier post. HOAs are a success because homeowners benefit.
I remember reading some of your posts on anti-HOA sites. You have been complaining for almost two years about your situation. If it is so stressful why not hire a good real estate agent (no, I am not in the real estate industry either) and move to the country where you won’t have to be bothered with HOAs? Perhaps you could move to a non-HOA community. Ours is a free country and we all have choices. No one has to live in an HOA if they do not want to do so. I wish the anti-HOA lobby would stop telling all of us what we need and don’t need.
32 Chris D. Calvin, Ph.D. - Feb 10, 07:46 am
JV, see follow-up response (sorry I don’t believe your interest aren’t closely aligned with the survival of this industry). You still haven’t reviewed the thousands of documented cases listed on the sites I provided and offer no supporting data or studies of your own. You even misrepresent the Harvard study by taking a piece of it out of context (very dishonest). That study is now well cited before senate committees and accepted. The trends are hard to refute (I guess you have some additional information that isn’t available from that source?).:
“The ubiquitous anon poster is always telling us about the networks that have evolved to support the evil industry du jour as if this does not happen in every industry. We should concentrate on things that we can change rather than whining about how the porridge is made.”
So basically just shut up and do nothing is what I see suggested in this paragraph above, right? I don’t think the AARP would have gotten involved if this hadn’t reached the crisis level and I’m sure the 156,000+ filings in Texas and our number #1 status (not a very good stat) in this category are something we need to address???
“The overwhelming majority of the filings probably do not actually go through because people pay up when they realize that the matter is serious and not “ridiculous”.
You are playing with words again and not providing any empirical support. I have yet to see you produce anything but your own anecdotals. Please cite a source to support your statements. All you have to do in Fort Bend County is visit the ACS court connect and cross reference the long list of HOA enforcer attorneys to see this same group is working over-time here too (these are specialty attorneys making a living off this business causing millions of dollars being spent in what amounts to frivolous lawsuits).
“I do not doubt that most homeowners are earnest tax paying, hard working Americans trying to afford and live the dream; but if they know that they can get by without paying HOA dues with little or no consequences; then HOAs and their members are going to be in trouble and the maintenance of common areas like pools and landscaping will have to stop. To deny with certainty that this would be the likely outcome is to deny human nature and basic economics.”
Again you provide no empirical support for such a claim and I would point to the study at HOAdata.org that supports the inverse as well as the hundreds of case studies posted on the ahrc site (and other previously listed). Please just post one study to refute this (just one legit study not sponsored by the CAI/ULI/TCREA industry with vested interest).
“You cite the Harvard Univ. study at HOAdata.org and say that it “produced significant counter evidence to support that aggressive acts like home seizure only hurt the property values in that community”.
This study, as I mentioned earlier, is well cited as an independent source to governmental committees, media, etc. and stands alone on its merits and what it communicates. I encourage anyone reading this to check it out for themselves (don’t just take our words for what we think it says) at http://pages.prodigy.net/hoadata/. Pay particularly close attention to the entire context as well as supporting data in the section titled price trends. 15,000 court filings in Harris county alone is more than enough to establish a statistically significant tendency JV.
“I agree with you that it is wrong for law firms that conduct the foreclosure filing to bid on the properties when they are up for foreclosure. The appropriate response is to expose and prosecute in these cases, rather than passing bad laws that destroy HOAs.”
No one is prosecuting these cases JV. That is the point of the interview shared in the “on the commons” source by the Florida legislative rep. They’ve studied the problem and the industry that has set this process up and profits from it. The issue is wide-spread, not some isolated incident. I sourced several examples here in Missouri City that you ignored in your response (see Meadowcreek and others). Again, in Meadowcreek clearly 1/3 of the homes had been filed upon by their lawyer enforcers (214/788, this too was covered by Houston media). If you read through that site you would also find that the same law firm had bid on properties they had filed foreclosure on and controlled the board via proxies. There has been no DA investigation or any other attempt at justice in this massive local case. Again, if you follow the contributions from this industry to key elected officials you better understand why. They were also told to pursue through a civil case. Reforms like the ones being initiated in Fla. are needed (revisit the sources and then refute the evidence/support provided in my earlier post). These frauds need to be investigated!
“You wrote that HOAs/mgrs./lawyers could collect monies owed by delinquent owners through civil lawsuits to collect debt, claims courts, removal of club privileges. How much money would this cost and how effective would it be? From what I have heard and read the methods you cite are not very effective in many cases and the paying homeowners usually get stuck with the bill.”
JV, is there a study or article or a website (other than the industry sites previously mentioned) that you are getting this info from. Additionally, I was making the point that the playing field must be leveled. That situation does not currently exist and thousands are suffering as is supported in the sources provided earlier (provide support not just opinion). You like to keep playing “the paying homeowners” off the supposed dead-beats while ignoring the real problem and why the costs have gone through the roof in your response (the bureaucracy is the problem and needs to be dismantled/reformed). This tactic is common from industry insiders, but rarely is real data used to support this claim. Just nicely coined marketing phrases as the industry continues its war on homeowners/consumers. You see I’m one of many homeowners that stays paid up, but was targeted by my HOA enforcer attorneys for speaking up (through our developer HOA board). I have seen the problem and experienced it first hand. No longer can the state legislatures ignore the problem, it is a national one with a well financed and organized industry (ULI, CAI & TCREA). Again bring forth real support and not just the marketing/PR diatribe I continue to witness from this group (independent data, data, data).
As for HOA boards using standard debt collection methods, it is what the rest of us are left with, thus good enough for the group that maintains the grass and pools.
“It is disingenuous to say that HOA foreclosure destroys people’s lives, families, and homes as if the HOA is responsible for an owner who can’t or won’t pay their assessment. HOAs may be private corporations under the law, but they actually exist for the public good.”
This is a well crafted and often coined statement that means very little JV when scratched below the surface. Basically this means that it is ok to use private contract traps to deal with those unruly “deadbeat” homeowners without recourse or due process. Of course, we know this not to be the case. This is the American dream being packaged and sold to the very people, with little choice if they want that home or property, must sign those contracts by the providers who set up this process. Many of these contracts give away constitutional rights. The one we signed did and later was used against us when we spoke up, as it is on many (this was done by industry members with deep pockets).
“ It must be available as a last resort.”
It is hardly used as a last resort when homes are taken in mass for things as small as mold on a fence, mildew, or grass height (which is well documented), several of these reported to the senate in ’06 sessions. One case/homeowner documented on the ahrc site spent $750k over two years on a fence placement disagreement that was settled (hardly reasonable and certainly frivolous). Sorry this power is being abused in scale and is well documented across the country. It’s the dirty little secret that the industry just can’t silence thanks to thousands of homeowners who are spending their own time and money to get the word out and thanks to the internet. I will continue to support HB749 and encourage others too. I will support laws that restore the checks and balances to a private system that pretends to have public power over its minions. I have seen and experienced the abuse and all without missing a payment.
“As a homeowner (not an industry insider which I am not) I am urging all to call your legislator to oppose HB749 and other bills that would hurt the HOAs ability to do their important work.”
Yes please do call them and tell them it is time to revoke this power that has been abused by this industry and bring sanity back to the neighborhoods. Please JV no more debate without evidence to back-up your claims. 150,000+ foreclosures in an environment unfriendly to consumers is enough. Pass this along for me will you (to your industry).
Signed,
Not homeless yet!
33 sol - Feb 10, 08:46 am
I read HB749 and it doesn’t stop HOAs from being formed. It keeps them from having the power to foreclose, which is currently one without adequate affordable due process options for homeowners. I’ m a homeowner Jaime that doesn’t want them to have that ability.
and...
34 anon - Feb 10, 12:38 pm
Jaime: I’m growing somewhat tired of your thinking you know EVERYTHING. You either are a foreclosure attorney in denial or have never had any experience with the foreclosure racket. I can tell you, for a fact, that not all, not even most foreclosures are because of dues not being paid. In fact, they are mostly about legal fees. For instance, if a person doesn’t pay their dues and get an attorney on their case, that attorney immediately starts running up the bills and their fees, then the amount for the dues is secondary and usually the dues have been paid by the time the vicious attorneys attack the homeowner. The judgements and foreclosures are over the legal fees. But in addition, Jaime, I have seen many, many cases where a homeowner is sent a violation letter from the management company over something as minial as dead grass or a a dying shrub or a basketball goal that can be seen from the street and if the homeowner doesn’t do something to change the situation, they will get a letter from an attorney; from that point on it is downhill for the homeowner as the fees are piling up to the point that they can’t keep up with it. In many cases, the victim is someone that the board or management company doesn’t like, or even that a person on the board who is involved in a conflict of interest, i.e., being an attorney themselves and recommending the foreclosure attorneys for the board and never telling the board that they are connected in some way, like working together in the same office under different firm names. If you want examples I will send them to this thread—-guarantee you that they are in the top three (at least top 10) of the hoadata.org llist, whether updated recently or not, so I won’t have to name them for you. Two of those top ten work together in the same office with different firm names.
It is amazing to me how much some people are not realizing about this whole racket. Do you think for one second that if this wasn ‘t a money making racket for these attorneys, they’d be doing it? They sit like vultures waiting for a person to miss a dues payment or let their yard go. And some HOA boards are right in the middle of the racket. Like I said before, there is some serious stuff that needs investigation in Fort Bend County and apparently Harris County to do with all of this. I have heard that judges are being more careful with this issue but not soon enough for some people; I hope you’ll research and see why.
PA
35 hot - Feb 10, 04:28 pm
PA,
The best thing I ever heard about this system and the regional and national attention this is all getting, was the fact that so many are finally noticing and working to shine the light on this problem, that has been ignored for so long. Perhaps, in a weird way, the power that was given to this clique 15+ years ago in a one-sided TX Supreme Court victory, where the defendants represented themselves, is the fact that public feeling has obviously shifted away from the abuse and legislatures are moving across this country to correct the mistake.
None to soon if you ask me.
See: http://hoanewsnetwork.com/media/node/1395/play
36 jamie - Feb 10, 10:55 pm
Dr. Calvin,
You wrongly accuse me of being dishonest and then you misstate the facts. The article above discusses 150,000+ foreclosure filings, not foreclosures as you state and you have shown no evidence concerning how many of these filings are HOA related.
You accuse me of providing no empirical support for my claims as to the deleterious effects of allowing people to leave their HOA high and dry without the threat of foreclosure, yet you provide no empirical evidence for your views. The truth of the matter is that there is no real good data supporting either side of the argument and the “studies” you cite are all related to the anti-HOA lobby in one form or another.
As for the Harvard study I merely quoted it appropriately to show that it does not prove what the anti-HOA lobby says it proves. Here is a quote from the section entitled, “Measuring the Benefit of HOAs: Property Values” (you and others reading this post should read the whole study and draw their own conclusions).
“It would be inappropriate to conclude on this evidence that HOAs or HOA foreclosures are actually bad for property values.”
This quote is from the study. We do not need to work hard to refute any trends because the author of the study admits that the data do not support the conclusion that the anti-HOA lobby has drawn. For instance, there are many ways that the “trends” noted in this data could be explained. Here is one example: people in lower priced neighborhoods tend to have more foreclosure filings (again, we do not know if this means that they have more actual foreclosures). In general, people in lower-priced neighborhoods tend to have less money, less credit and less resources overall. Why is it so surprising that there are more foreclosure filings here? For every single trend that you might cite from this “study” we could ask these same sorts of questions. I would recommend that you stop referring to these “studies” as if they prove anything conclusive because they prove little.
The fact that the study has been dishonestly or ignorantly cited before senate committees and accepted is irrelevant because it does not prove that HOAs or HOA foreclosures are bad for property values.
I do not doubt your story about your developer controlled board. Your best bet is to wait until your developer leaves or move to a settled community that is no longer under control of a developer instead of expecting the government to solve all your problems while creating other problems for the rest of us who live in HOAs.
I do not deny that there are unreasonable HOA boards, HOA attorneys and management companies; but $750k on a fence disagreement before settling? What was that homeowner thinking? Could the owner have been unreasonable too?
Finally, HOA boards must by their nature continue to deliver services to nonpaying consumers forever so they are not on par with you, me, credit card companies or any other businesses. Even a credit card company can refuse to extend you more credit if you fail to pay, but an HOA has to keep up the grounds for paying and nonpaying homeowners. If the HOA is unable to keep its obligations due to nonpaying homeowners then the grass and the pools will not be maintained unless the rates are raised for the paying homeowners.
37 Chris D. Calvin, Ph.D. - Feb 11, 07:15 am
JV,
I have asked you repeatedly just for one non industry supported study and you have provided none. Additionally in all my rebuttals I have provided either case support or actual studies. Your only counter argument has been a weak attempt to dismantle my my position. In the world I work in you are not doing anything but promoting a circular argument and relying on me to provide the attack points for you. I will no longer participate in your rhetorical exercise (it’s a waste of time and too many people have already been hurt). I suspect, as I always have, that you are somehow linked with the industry and are either a hired hand in some marketing firm or do not know anyone that has ever been harmed by these private corporations. The real concern should be reforming the HOA system, not simply arguing that everything is ok and the sky isn’t falling in on these privately controlled quasi-governments, which real government, until this point, has been unwilling to do (it is good to see some legislatures here and in Florida, as well as other states finally looking at this private corporate mistake that has hurt thousands).
“You accuse me of providing no empirical support for my claims as to the deleterious effects of allowing people to leave their HOA high and dry without the threat of foreclosure, yet you provide no empirical evidence for your views.”
Again the support (and you might want to note that I said support, not proof, since you know as well as I that this type of SS research can only SUPPORT trends, so don’t misquote or label my responses or attempt to “mind read”) is evidence that a major problem does exist. I know few real scientist that would look at the Harvard study or the thousands of cases in a meta-analysis and would draw the conclusions that you have (your welcome to produce some, but I won’t hold my breath as you’ve produced nothing but refutation yet). Simply discounting my support or my arguments does nothing to hamper or change what is happening. TUPCA, as you know, was the trade sponsored bill that came out of the TX legislature with two unfavorable committee reports (are you claiming these groups in business & industry as well as the intergovernmental committee are some how out of touch on the evidence, which they have more access to than either of us? If so I think you and your argument is what we call an outlier.)
“The truth of the matter is that there is no real good data supporting either side of the argument and the “studies” you cite are all related to the anti-HOA lobby in one form or another.”
Simply because homeowners/consumers across this state agree that foreclosure is not a tool they want their HOAs to have doesn’t mean their is some well organized union against HOAs. As I’ve said many times before I’m not anti-HOA, just anti foreclosure power and pro-oversight, pro-democratic process, etc. These quasi-private governments need reform and if they resist this then they need to be closely monitored by REAL government that is elected and not proxied in by their special interest lawyers. As for your position regarding “no evidence” I think your posts have provided nothing but unsupported opinion, no facts. So yes I agree with half of your statement above and will continue to wait until you produce something that can be refuted.
I still wonder what your position is on the constitutional violation (TX Article 16 sect. 50 I believe)?
“I would recommend that you stop referring to these “studies” as if they prove anything conclusive because they prove little.”
In your opinion (you might want to keep adding this since you are providing nothing to refute the mounds of earlier support and sources I’ve linked or referenced in this series of responses).
“I do not doubt your story about your developer controlled board. Your best bet is to wait until your developer leaves or move to a settled community that is no longer under control of a developer instead of expecting the government to solve all your problems while creating other problems for the rest of us who live in HOAs.”
Sounds like your normal solution to the thousands that have been targeted in these communites. Just keep moving (not an easy task and a very expensive one). You will never have to worry about it, will you?
“If the HOA is unable to keep its obligations due to nonpaying homeowners then the grass and the pools will not be maintained unless the rates are raised for the paying homeowners.”
This is not nearly the problem you keep claiming it is and is the only industry argument that is chanted time and time again (I might add with no evidentiary underpinnings).
Again, HOAs have more than enough tools to enforce debt collection without taking families homes, property or lives away. The bigger problem and the REAL reason the costs are skyrocketing is because, as I said before, the bureaucracy continues to grow and feed off the estimated 90 billion+ dollars in HOA reserves, which has attracted this industry.
Say yes to HB749 and remove a short lived mistake. We should never have given this control away to private companies and their lawyer lobby enforcers over our homes! Checks and balances need to be in place to monitor these private fiefdoms. I only wish the reform would remove the proxy rights often abused by the HOA attorneys and their boards (as was the case previously posted on Meadowcreek community with 288 filings out of 714 homes, not a bunch of deadbeats folks/JV).
JV, please stop opining and produce an argument with documentable support.
The grass will get cut and the pools will stay open (and assessments will get collected)!
Signed a homeowner/assessment payer who strongly supports HOA reform!
38 jlc - Feb 11, 11:59 am
I have read back on your postings Jaime and don’t find much to convince me that your position is the correct one. I see posturing, accusations and a pretty sad attempt to play victim. If you can’t provide any real factual basis for your posts why not just admit it instead of throwing up the smoke screen?
and still...
39 John Cobarruvias - Feb 11, 05:43 pm
Getting back to the original point…..
Researching your builder. Look it doesnt hurt to research the builders you are considering. Do a google search on “Bob Perry” defects.
Then ask yourself, would you buy a house from Bob?
40 cc - Feb 11, 06:46 pm
Point well taken on Perry. The net is full of info on him. If one would google my builder one would really believe they are fairly good and if problems arise they will take care of you. Not so. How many others are like that? I believe that is why having homeowner’s websites available so others can get an idea of what they may be stepping into is an excellent idea.
A while back a news article was done on my horrid experience.
If one googled my builder for a short period of time that article would have come up. It did not take long for the same article to be approx. 18 pages back in a google search. How many people do you know would have gone through 18 pages to get the information they needed to see?
Quite incredible.
41 jamie - Feb 11, 11:40 pm
Dr. Calvin,
You complain that I have no empirical support for my position, but do not seem to want to admit that you are in the same boat. There is no real scholarly work on this issue, just hype. All of your reports are from people involved in the anti-HOA lobby who have an axe to grind. If I am wrong then please point me in the direction of a specific report that supports your case and is not from a source that has an axe to grind. A problem exists, but its cause is far from clear.
A visit to the websites you cited revealed that many of them contain complaints about builders, insurance companies, mortgage lenders which have nothing to do with the HOA foreclosure matter brought up by Ms. Jones. I believe Mr. Fogal’s complaints regarding builders should receive more attention and I am actually sorry that Ms. Jones sidetracked the discussion.
One of the links on one of the sites you cited reported that there are 70 million people living in HOAs in the U.S. How many are complaining? 1000 (0.0014%)? 100,000 (0.14%). This is not really the problem that the anti-HOA lobby would have us believe.
The reports of Texas foreclosures cite lending practices, the availability of nonjudicial foreclosures, slow property appreciation, regional economies and personal misfortune. Perhaps making non-judicial foreclosure less available might be one way to go, but it will just make everything more expensive for all of us since non-judicial foreclosure costs less. Please note that not all HOAs can non-judicially foreclose and that other entities can non-judicially foreclose so it is not synonymous with HOA foreclosure.
As for the Business & Industry and the Intergovernmental Committee being out of touch on the evidence, I think that is the wrong question. For the last decade or so they have been bombarded by a very active anti-HOA lobby effort that has played every emotional card possible. Evidence has nothing to do with it.
You asked about my position on the “constitutional violation” (TX Article 16 sect. 50).
I agree with the Texas Supreme Court’s ruling in Inwood vs. Harris which held that an owner (developer) is free to impress property with a covenant running with the land, and that a developer of the subdivision, as owner of all land subject to the developer’s declaration, is entitled to create liens on his land to secure the payment of assessments. The court further determined that subsequent purchasers were bound by references in their deeds to the covenants as well as by all instruments in a particular purchaser’s chain of title.
While I acknowledge that there is no way to prove that the removal of the ability for HOAs to foreclose will lead to a situation in which the grass and the pools will not be maintained unless the rates are raised for the paying homeowners; you should also acknowledge that you have no proof that everything will be great if the legislature will just disallow HOA foreclosure. If you and others feel so strongly that this is the case, then arrange to take over your HOA boards, declare that you will not use the foreclosure threat to collect delinquent assessments and prove that it works. If it works well, then I will be the first to congratulate you and seek to implement this sort of thing in my community.
Until then I have to say no to HB749 which will do little to help those of us who live in HOAs and will likely cause significant harm if passed. Perhaps there will be other HOA legislation that I can support.
42 hot - Feb 12, 05:02 am
The buried google or other search engine happening occurs because of ad placement and how the sites sell location in the searches. Most marketing firms for these companies are aware of this and know how to bury controversy in these searches. Hopefully savy homeowners know how to put in the correct search terms. Try the company names and say another term like lawsuit or defects, etc. That should turn up reports and even the nightmare events. The best friend of the consumer used to be the magazine, but now it is the internet. Of course always cross check your searches with another verifiable source.
43 John Cobarruvias - Feb 12, 06:58 am
An internet search is just one of the many things to do. Search the BBB, even as worthless as it is. Contact the TRCC and ask for a list of complaints against the company. Did to the Attorney Generals office. Look if they are donating to candidates at the Ethics Commission.
If you did the above for Bob Perry, you would think twice about buying.
44 Chris D. Calvin, Ph.D. - Feb 12, 07:00 am
Jaime,
Please just keep rereading the earlier posts and twisting them anyway you like. I’m glad you are happy in your world and wish you the best.
Final notes on pointing out logic errors in your last post:
“One of the links on one of the sites you cited reported that there are 70 million people living in HOAs in the U.S. How many are complaining? 1000 (0.0014%)? 100,000 (0.14%). This is not really the problem that the anti-HOA lobby would have us believe.”
I won’t address the statistical errors in this retort or try to reframe your argument just point out the fallacy of the logic used. If most governmental entities applied your approach then no action would ever be taken on any public concern. We wouldn’t need police, fire or other currently accepted services.
Additionally, I would rename the so called “anti-HOA lobby”, as you like to label them, a pro-consumer group or better yet victims of HOA abuse.
You also continue to ignore the AARP’s stance on these type of foreclosures and the harm caused to the greying population in America. As for your other inaccuracies and mischaracterizations, I will leave that to other readers as I’m sure your tactics have been exposed in this thread (good lobby work though).
Keep trying! I wish you and the industry lobby much luck, because the tables are turning.
Support HB749! (not you JV/MM?)
I hope you all can help with this. Is it true Missouri City is annexing Sienna Plantation commercial areas and using the sales tax inside the city limits and not on improvements for Sienna residents?
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